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When Schouten & Nelissen and Relevance CEO Camiel Gielkens met with AutoGravity CEO Alexandre Mallmann, their discussion of change management quickly turned into a catch-up session between two old friends. Here’s what the two CEOs had to say about the role people play in the success or failure of a new strategy.

This article was published in Schouten & Nelissen magazine in 2019

Alex, it’s been a while since we worked together in China. And now you’ve moved to California to head AutoGravity. Let’s talk about change, which is something you have certainly never shied away from, have you?

“No, not exactly! Looking back on my career, in every company where I have served as CEO, I initiated a change process. But always for different reasons. Sometimes I needed to turn around a downward trajectory. Other times, like in China, I needed to get the company ready for growth.

Now at AutoGravity, it’s a different game altogether. When I came here, it felt like a start-up. AutoGravity already had market-leading technology. It was my challenge to formulate a clear business model and strategy.”

I know you have a lot of experience in financial business models and you are a real innovator. But to go into a company and challenge the entire business model, that’s a big change. What a tough job.

“Talking about change! I can tell you, it has been difficult at times. We began with 160 people in the company, and now we have fewer than 60. The company needed to be downsized in order to stay in business. I saw we were not going in the right direction. I said, ‘Guys, this is where this company is going; I need to know who is in, and who is out. If you are not in, we respect that, but we have to move forward.’”

Bold moves! I know you always have very high standards. That can be very demanding, but I also admire you for your care for people. How do you get the best out of your people in a situation like that?

“If you are driving major change at any organization, you are probably stepping into a situation that needs fixing. Until you acknowledge the challenges employees have experienced in the past, they are not going to believe in any proposed changes for the future. So, it’s very important to be honest about things that have gone wrong. Provide a diagnosis and a vision for what success looks like going forward. Once you have done those things, ask for people’s commitment to right the ship. A company’s most important resource is its people. If they don’t believe, the company has no chance.”

I sense there is a great lesson to learn here. You must have a clear view of what the key steps are in such a process. How do you lead a change process?

“Overall, I see 5 steps to any change process. These have applied in every change project I have been a part of. I start by doing an assessment to understand what phase a company is in. I talk to the executive team and other stakeholders. Next, I hold ‘skip-level meetings’ in which I talk with the team one level below my direct reports. Then I have what I call ‘heartbeat meetings’ in which I invite employees, regardless of their level in the organization, to meet with me for informal conversations. In these meetings, we can ask each other any question. This is so valuable.”

"Leaders today should be kind and respectful."

Alexandre Mallmann

Alexandre Mallmann’s 5-step change process

1. Organization assessment
2. Direction and vision
3. Strategy and execution
4. Values and behaviors
5. Communication

This is a great concept, ‘heartbeat meetings’. I want to know more. How do you create a readiness for change in people?

“Well, the fact that you invite people to talk is a great motivator. People appreciate the time you take for them. I show people that I depend on their views. I don’t know all the details. They do! It is so important to really listen to the people in your organization and demonstrate how their input led to tangible outcomes for the company. Show your appreciation. That is how people become more open to change.”

What is the second step after organization assessment?

“Direction. What I have seen at many places is a lack of clear direction for the company. Where are we going? I get the executive team together and we define what I call ‘the North Star’. What is the vision for the company that the leadership team agrees upon?”

How important is alignment, and how do you move from a direction to real actions?

“Alignment is key. I sometimes jokingly say, only after the executive team ‘signs the vision in blood’, it’s time to move to strategy. That’s the third step. Where are we today and then where do we want to be? Which strategic initiatives will it take to get there? I usually gather the top 100 people and involve them in strategy creation.”

What really makes people engaged in a change process? I believe passionate people make a company successful, don’t you?

“Yes! After the strategy has been set, and everybody knows the vision, the next step is to reinforce the values and behaviors that you want the entire organization to follow. Unless everybody has the same attitude, you will not be able to execute any strategy.

I have always been very keen on behaviors. I like people to respectfully challenge each other. And be frank. You have to be ready for some honest feedback and even some conflict at times. But this is how you improve and move forward. If the organization is not ready to accept this, the business is not going to grow.”

Company values help define desirable attitudes and behaviors. Let’s talk about how this relates to company culture.

“I believe it is extremely important for a company to create the right culture for putting a strategy into practice. In order for people to adopt new behaviors and have a positive attitude, you need to communicate. Make clear to everybody what the objectives are, and why you have set them. Really engage them, be clear and transparent. It doesn’t matter if you have 50 or 1,000 people in your organization. Everybody needs to know the clear direction the company is working toward.”

I remember you often spoke about existing patterns that can stand in the way of success. How do you help people break through those kinds of behaviors?

“People need to understand why change is necessary. In that process, I generally group people’s reactions into 3 categories:

• Glad to get some fresh air. Their attitude is, ‘Let’s make it happen.’ These people don’t need to be convinced.
• Apprehensive, but willing to try. Their attitude is, ‘I will go which way the wind blows.’ These people need to be coached and engaged more. This means, celebrate successes and show them the benefits. Usually this helps them to be positive about the changes.
• Opposing change. Their attitude is, ‘I know better than you’. It is important to be fair and help them understand. Provide training where possible, but if behaviors don’t change, it jeopardizes the entire organization. Unless they change, they can’t be part of the team going forward.”

That’s a clear analysis. It makes me think. This is the way to engage people in the beginning of a change process. How do you keep people on track in the long term?

“That’s where the value of the company’s vision becomes so important. The vision should not be a static thing, because business is not static. So, a company’s vision needs to be in line with how its business evolves over time. Most importantly, it has to be communicated to employees in a way that makes sense both in the short and long term. You know, a vision statement like ‘becoming number 1’ is not clear and compelling enough. What does that mean, really? It needs to be something that excites employees and makes them feel proud to contribute. I have seen how energized and committed people get when their company supports social and sustainable causes. Keeping your people on track really comes down to your organization’s purpose. Purpose is the primary reason people choose to work for a company these days. It’s more important to employees than money or location, especially for younger people joining the workforce today.”

This hits close to home for me. You’re talking about people – planet – profit. Connecting company values to individual values. You mentioned that purpose is important to young people. That brings me to a final question: what tips can you give to young leaders?

“First, I recommend learning about empathy. It’s important to understand where others are coming from. Be kind and respectful, be humble. Give praise to your team. Make the other person shine! Success should not be so much about you.

In addition, communicate clearly and transparently. You know, sometimes people become leaders because they have strong technical skills. But they are not trained in communicating and motivating others. As a leader, you need to help your team understand why a specific decision has been made, and give people regular feedback.

At the end of the day, you need to look after the larger organization. Give compliments where they are due. And at the same time, be honest with people who underperform. Because it’s not fair to the rest of the team if you don’t ask people to step up when needed. This type of approach benefits the entire organization.”

Alexandre Mallmann has more than twenty years of experience in the automotive industry. He served as CEO of Mercedes-Benz Financial Services in Portugal and Spain and later of Mercedes-Benz Auto Finance China. Since 2018, he is CEO of AutoGravity, a leading digital car-shopping and financing platform based in California, USA.

Camiel Gielkens is CEO of Schouten & Nelissen Group and Relevance. He was general manager and executive coach for Schouten China from 2012 to 2018.

Tuesday 8 March 2022: International Women's Day. This year's theme is solidarity. Because gender emancipation is not one-sided, and men benefit from equality, too. To discuss that idea, Nathalie van der Poel (Leadership development & organizational transformation consultant and executive coach), Camiel Gielkens (CEO Schouten & Nelissen Company) and Marieke Schouten (Chief DNA Officer) sit around the digital table.

They talk about female leadership, or rather what it isn't, and discuss where the problems of gender inequality are expressed. Besides identifying the resulting problems, we also need to celebrate the added value of diversity, all three agree. Because differences mean several perspectives in an organization. That generates great value, so long as it is correctly enforced and applied in the organizational culture. The question that remains is: how do we do that?

Categorizing is a skill you can (un)learn

A term we often come across nowadays is 'female leadership'. But is this an adequate description? Nathalie doesn't think so: 'There's no such thing as female leadership. Yes, women may take a different approach or demonstrate different behavior, but I feel that this term excludes people. We are talking here about diversity and inclusion, so we need to stop using this term.' Camiel wonders why we use that term then, and where it comes from. After all, we don't talk about typical male leadership. Why do we specify leadership by a woman by her gender?

Marieke explains this by the functioning of our brain: 'We are programmed to categorize. We link certain characteristics to gender, which is how stereotypes arise. Thatcher, for example, was seen as the Iron Lady.' Nathalie agrees and explains that we quickly conform to those stereotypical roles. 'Using these terms doesn't help anyone. We need to focus on what an organization and its employees need. Do we want a warm, innovating, harmonious or result-driven culture? We can use these terms without categorizing them as male or female.'

Inclusive leadership starts with the system

So we need to approach leaders differently. Marieke talks about a previous manager who she considered her role model. He led his team by empowering people and inspiring them. That was real inclusive leadership: everyone had a voice. Besides looking at the leaders, Marieke feels that the phase an organization is in also determines the type of leadership. Then it's important to explore the extent to which the leader and organization are a match. Camiel: 'Exactly. What type of organization do you want to be? When you know that, you can adapt and focus on that.' Based on that thought, it is easier to work towards inclusion.

Because according to Nathalie, inclusive leadership is about closing the gap between the cultural norm and a minority. 'If there's a minority in an organization somewhere, based on for instance ethnicity, religion or gender, and all the attention is then focused on that group, you can naturally strengthen that category, but only to a certain point. When this point is reached, but there is still a gap between that strengthened, well-functioning minority and the cultural norm of the organization, we need to look at the system. How do we become inclusive enough?'

The blueprint of the management

Camiel talks about a recent conversation he had with a top woman manager who was wondering about her next step. This wasn't about her own ability, but rather whether she wanted it: 'She was wondering whether she wanted to fit into the mold we talked about earlier. Do I want to work those long hours? Do I feel at home there? Can I do myself justice there?' Marieke agrees: 'There seems to be a blueprint of what the top looks like, what we feel we need to be.' Marieke studied the promotion opportunities for women, which revealed that they think differently than the average male manager. But instead of adapting, top women also started rethinking how they could work in that top role. 'I'm a mother, I can do that job, but I'm going to do it differently and do the work in four days instead of five. They set their own conditions to filling that top role, in consultation with their partner,' she says. Ultimately, it's about making choices with respect to wishes - do I want this, but also about setting conditions - that's how I'm going to do it. 'It's important here to remember: is it about the position or the organization? Sometimes, the company simply doesn't suit you,' Marieke adds.

What's interesting is the difference in the way in which men and women make a career. Camiel: 'I see men often being quite competitive in organizations. They start competing, something women don't seem to do so much. Perhaps this is due to different dynamics and another perspective. Do you recognize that?' Nathalie nods: 'Yes, recent studies show that in some organizations, rivalry and competition are important skills for moving up the ladder. That doesn't suit many women. They can move up in other ways, for example in a different organization.' However, this obviously doesn't apply to all women and men. These dynamics often occur, but not all women reject competition, and not all men want to compete. Because that's when men also encounter stigmas. Nathalie gives an example: 'If men work a day less, they are sometimes overlooked as a potential candidate for the executive board.' This is where the importance of mutual solidarity emerges.

That's exactly the reason why Nathalie emphasizes inclusive leadership. Because while we are (or hope to be) very aware of the problems, both men and women conform to a certain mold. That mold needs to become more flexible to be sufficiently inclusive for women and men. In other words: the organizational culture must change. How do we ensure that we change the mold, or the culture, instead of ourselves?

Awareness outside your bubble

Camiel mentions the importance of diversity. Marieke agrees: 'It's logical that all boards are the same. You surround yourself with likeminded people, your bias.' Many organizations are already trying to improve this. For example, some companies use anonymous, external assessments for filling executive roles. The management then soon has more women. Awareness is therefore the first step, and we can then build on that. '‘We need to engage in dialogue and give each other space,’ says Nathalie. 'Diversity can be very rewarding, particularly because men and women are biologically different. I believe that this can provide great value for organizations, so long as it is well integrated in the organizational culture.' Because she knows from experience that those unconscious prejudices can be stubborn: 'Differentiation and ordering remain. As an organization, you therefore need to create psychological safety by setting boundaries and standardizing behavior.'

We know the saying 'change starts with you'. Clearly, the organizational culture benefits from change. Organizations need to offer psychological safety and space to talk to each other. What can we do ourselves to respond to that? Marieke says that she has benefitted a great deal from the role models in her life. Precisely the people who aren't like you can teach you a lot and inspire you. It starts with looking for what you need, what you want to learn and what is important to you. On Women's Day, many female role models are celebrated. With the 2022 theme, likeminded men also have a say. Because we can only achieve gender emancipation together. So, engage in the dialogue and look beyond the bubble of your bias. Today is a good day to start your search. Because Marieke knows: ‘For every area in which you want to grow, you can find a role model.'

Would you like to work on Diversity & Inclusion in your organization?
We are happy to discuss this topic with you and create a strategy that fits your organization. Please don't hesitate to contact us for a first conversation.

In the Dutch BNR Podcast ‘Werkverkenners’, which roughly translates to ‘Work Explorers’, host Rens de Jong finds answers to his and your work-related questions. He invited our VP Customized Anke Baak to discuss what is called the ‘blind spot’ our subconscious creates upon a first impression of someone or something. Oftentimes, this extremely fast information processing is helpful: it saves us a lot of time. However, the habit of generalizing can also keep us from seeing someone’s full potential. Hence, working on your blind spot, or biases, is crucial in effective leadership.

Rens wonders how reliable our first impressions are, since these are produced in seconds. Anke mentions the importance of such processes in prehistory: to survive, we needed to make assumptions and think fast. But today, jumping to conclusions can work against you. Especially as a manager, it’s important to remain open to information –preferably facts – which might cause you to reject your initial assumptions, Anke says.

Where does our blind spot come from?

Unfortunately, changing your biases is easier said than done. Anke: “If you’ve got a brain, you’ve got a bias.” She describes three processes in our brain which contribute to the formation of biases.

• Generalizing: we draw general conclusions from particular situations or people.
• Selective perception: we tend to only register information which matches our existing frame of reference. Herein we can distinct two opposite effects. The ‘halo effect’ occurs when our previous positive evaluation of someone or something influences our opinion in other areas. The opposite effect, the ‘horn effect’, negatively influences our opinions based on an unfavorable bias.
• Warmth and competence model: we have a tendency to attribute competence to people we feel more connected to, who resemble ourselves.

As an expert on the subconscious brain, Genieke Hertoghs explains that our subconscious works a thousand times faster than our conscious brain. This hands the subconscious a great deal of conviction. Genieke elaborates: “The goal of our subconscious is to keep our ego intact, to protect it. When someone says certain things which go against your point of view, this person receives a negative point in our subconscious brain. And when this ‘minus one’ is registered, it’s hard to change. After all, the subconscious makes sure our existing opinions remain.” This is a shame, since we might miss interesting perspectives, stories and information from people who have different ideas than we do, Rens responds. Anke agrees: “In today’s tight labor market, organizations can’t afford to lose valuable employees because of the consequences of insufficient leadership. This causes employees to not feel seen or heard. Moreover, they can’t miss out on the talent and eye-opening potential which would be available in diverse teams. Inclusive leadership is crucial to reach an organization’s full potential.”

“Be curious about facts which might change your bias.”

“But how do we get rid of these processes and biases?”, Rens asks. Anke stresses the importance of determination: if there’s a necessity, it’s possible to reduce such generalizing thinking. It’s crucial to be curious, Anke says. “We need to be interested in the facts which might change our bias. Because if we’re not curious about and open to such information, we will simply dismiss information that is not congruent with our bias as a stroke of luck or coincidence.”

Put your bias to the test

It’s quite clear that diversity is important, but raises challenges because of the familiar blind spot. How can we work on putting our default mode of bias on stand-by? Genieke advices to stay on top of your thoughts. Step one is to acknowledge you’re not understanding someone, as soon as you realize this. More importantly, aim to recognize their potential. “Put this person on a pedestal for once, ask questions and discover more about his or her perspective. Find the point where this person is right and you are wrong,” she elaborates. Digging through what you might feel is “garbage” information at first, is called ‘pulling’.

This is related to the concept of the ‘pyramid of perception’. This implies that once the other feels heard and seen, you will climb the ladder of their perception. The higher you climb, the higher the other’s willingness to change their perception of you. Once this is achieved, you can cooperate in achieving your goals together, as a manager and an employee. The other side of the coin would be achieved by ‘pushing’, which would be to blindly follow your subconscious into protecting your ego. In this case, you feel the need to convince the other and by doing so, you attract resistance and get awarded with a low position on the perspective pyramid. This needs to be avoided. Therefore, Genieke stresses the importance of digging towards the underlying food for thought: “Eventually, you will run into something valuable, something that makes you think: ‘you’re right, you have a point’. That’s where you gain profit.”

Creating dialogue for sustainable organizational and personal change

Rens understands the importance of being aware of your blind spot. But how can we achieve this in an entire company culture? He fears that the digging goes wrong, that his bias takes over and conflicts arise. Anke explains the importance when working on a company’s culture of investing in the dialogue: “During Relevance’s companywide learning programs, groups of employees are all part of the same trainings and discussions. Together, we open the dialogue about selective perception and its consequences. This creates safe and open communication. Another helpful aspect is working with case studies to reflect on what goes well and which aspects could use improvement. With multiple sessions and interventions, people really get to practice and put their acquired knowledge to use. That’s when they realize: half of my thinking is based on prejudices.”

That’s an interesting point: what if you’re the blind spot? What can be done when you feel your manager doesn’t see your potential? Anke believes the most important thing is to not start believing this is true. Because once you feel your manager doesn’t believe in you, you become self-conscious, which affects your performance negatively. “It all starts with believing in yourself,” she says. “Keep your back straight and prove your manager wrong with facts. Think of the warmth and competence model: making sure to connect with your manager; If someone likes you, it helps.”

“Discover what drives their perspective.”

Genieke offers another exercise: writing down what you know about your manager. Forgo the facts, but try to focus on how this person views the world, what drives them, which themes and why? Oftentimes, your notebook remains (almost) empty. The conclusion being you actually don’t know that much about your superior. “If you want to climb on their perception ladder, you need to discover what drives their perspective,” she adds. In short: asking questions while letting go of your bias will help you gain the desired plus points in their subconscious. Consequentially, they will view you differently and take your ideas more seriously.

“In conclusion, we all have a bias,” Rens says. Without confronting it, you might be wasting your team’s potential. People who don’t feel heard and seen, are less likely to make the best effort. By climbing on the perception pyramid, manager and employee share a better understanding and therefore better cooperation. Creating an open dialogue is a great way to start this process and create sustainable change in company culture. Good luck!

Are you interested in uncovering your own and your organization’s blind spot? Contact us for more information!

As a leader, our CEO Camiel Gielkens always tries to remind himself why he does everything he does: to create positive change. “I want to facilitate change and give people the push they need. That’s what energizes me.” This is where the importance of future leadership comes into play.

Before he took the helm as CEO, Gielkens was partly responsible for the international expansion of Schouten Global (now Relevance). As general manager of Schouten China, he supervised growth in the pan-Asian region, learning valuable lessons. “When I look back at my time in China, it revolved around two things: agility and scale. Developments are happening so fast in China that agility is a genuine requirement. You need to change gears quickly, act fast, and make decisions on the fly. You need to know what’s going on in your environment and be able to adjust your strategy accordingly. If you’re not agile, you’ll always be playing catch-up.” Leadership effectiveness is thus very important. 

Big international journeys

In China, Gielkens worked on a completely different scale than he had in Europe. “You can add two or three zeros to everything, which requires a different approach from your organization. I’m immensely proud of the fact that we managed to roll out our services throughout the pan-Asian region during that time. All in all, it was a period that taught me very valuable lessons. Those lessons came in handy with the challenges of the Covid-19 pandemic and the bigger international journeys we are taking with our clients today.”

Leadership of the future

To stay relevant as a leader in the future, Gielkens says it’s crucial to know your business well. “You must stay up to date with what’s going on in your business,” he says. He also explains that it’s important that you can operate at a high level and withstand the pressure you may face as a leader. “You need to be both mentally and physically fit. I do that by playing sports: I like to cycle and play tennis. Besides being active, I also schedule rest periods by meditating regularly.”

Moreover, Gielkens believes it’s important for a leader to be connected to their purpose: you need to know why you're doing it. “For me, it’s all about creating positive change. Whether it’s at Relevance or at one of our clients, I want to facilitate change and give people the push they need. That’s what energizes me.”

Constantly pushing boundaries

As a leader, you must keep pushing your boundaries, Gielkens believes. “To me, leadership is not about waiting for things to happen, but about creating your own success. After all, you play to win, not lose.”

But how do you do that? To Gielkens, it’s a matter of connecting and inspiring. “You need to make sure that you not only inspire your people but also include them in your goals and strategy. You do that by constantly thinking ahead and having scenarios ready: if this happens, we’ll do that. That’s how you create a certain agility as an organization, which certainly came in handy during the pandemic.”

"Instead of waiting for things to happen, create your own success: that's leadership."

Agility

The CEO is proud when he reflects on the past year and a half. “Normally, about 80% of what we do is done face to face, and that suddenly plummeted to zero in March 2020. However, our turnover remained about the same because we made a massive change in a very short time: we offered all our services online and talked directly with our clients about what they needed most at that time. It turned out to be a lot: from supervising and collaborating remotely to organizing online meetings or designing digital onboarding programs. The fact that we could turn our services around like that in a few weeks showed the agility we had already built up as an organization.”

Always continue to learn

Job satisfaction is an important theme at Relevance, so for Gielkens too. “For me, job satisfaction means doing the things that you know will have an impact, that you are good at, and that you enjoy doing. I enjoy empowering people to take control of their own lives. Enabling someone to discover what they are good at, helping them identify that dream for the future: that’s really what drives me.” In the past year, the CEO also saw the importance of social interaction confirmed. “People really need that social connection, and as a company you have to facilitate that.”

Finally, for Gielkens, job satisfaction is about continuing to learn. “As a leader, you must enable your employees to do that. But above all, you must keep doing it yourself; otherwise, you’ll stagnate. I take an intensive course every few years. This year, I’m doing one at the IE Business School in Madrid, covering topics like blended learning and the latest technologies in that field. This introduces me to things I can immediately put into practice. By continuing to learn, you not only help yourself, you also help your organization advance.”

Do you want to know more about leadership?